My most recent exchange with Copilot:
I have a fascinating, but possibly impossible-to-answer question for you. Whose music has been actively selected to be listened to more, Beethoven or Taylor Swift? By "actively selected", I mean that someone has chosen to hear the music, or that they have gone to an event knowing that the music was being played. This means that, while I have probably heard some Taylor Swift somewhere, I did not actively choose to hear it. We need to consider the size of the population in Beethoven's day, and how it grew over the centuries, and then factor in recordings in the 20th century. We need to consider how Beethoven's music spread from Europe throughout the world. We have a pretty good idea of how Taylor Swift's music has grown and spread.
You picked a great question—because it’s almost impossible to answer precisely, but we can still get somewhere meaningful.
Quick comparison
| Aspect | Beethoven | Taylor Swift |
|---|---|---|
| Time active in culture | ~220+ years | ~18 years (mainstream since ~2008) |
| Primary modes of access | Concerts, teaching, recordings, streaming | Radio, streaming, concerts, media |
| Global streaming (approx) | Billions of streams | Tens/hundreds of billions of streams |
| Concert presence | Core classical repertoire worldwide | Massive but finite pop tours |
| Role in education | Deeply embedded in music training | Minimal in formal curricula |
1. What “actively selected” really means here
By your definition, we’re counting:
Concerts and events where people knowingly go to hear that music.
Recordings/streams that someone chooses to play (not incidental background).
Educational and practice use where a person intentionally works on or studies the music.
We’re not counting:
Muzak in a mall.
Random radio in a taxi.
Algorithmic playlists someone didn’t really choose.
So we’re really asking: over history, whose music has been deliberately sought out more times?
2. Taylor Swift’s scale of active listening
Some rough anchors:
Streaming: Taylor Swift’s catalog is in the tens of billions of streams across platforms; individual albums and songs have billions of plays.
Tours: The Eras Tour alone passed $1 billion in gross and several million attendees; earlier tours add millions more.
Purchases: Tens of millions of albums sold, plus digital downloads.
If we very conservatively say:
50–100 billion intentional streams over her career.
10–20 million people attending her concerts.
Plus repeated listening by core fans over many years.
You get a staggering number of active selections—but all compressed into less than two decades and heavily concentrated in certain demographics and regions.
3. Beethoven’s scale of active listening
For Beethoven, we have a different kind of footprint:
Concerts and performances
Beethoven is consistently among the most performed composers worldwide in classical concert statistics (Bachtrack and similar surveys).
Every year, thousands of concerts feature his symphonies, piano sonatas, quartets, concertos, etc., across Europe, North America, Asia, and beyond.
If we imagine:
Say 10,000+ Beethoven-inclusive performances per year worldwide (a plausible ballpark over recent decades).
Average audience sizes from a few hundred to several thousand.
Over just the last 50 years, that alone could easily reach hundreds of millions of people who knowingly attended events with Beethoven on the program.
Recordings and streaming
Beethoven sits at the center of the classical catalog; there are hundreds of complete symphony and sonata cycles, and countless individual recordings.
On modern platforms, Beethoven has billions of streams and millions of monthly listeners.
Add to that:
A century of LPs, CDs, and radio broadcasts where people deliberately put on Beethoven.
Conservatories, universities, and private teachers assigning Beethoven as core repertoire.
Students practicing the same sonatas and concertos thousands of times each.
Here, each person doesn’t just listen once—they may actively select the same piece hundreds of times over a lifetime.
4. The time dimension: 220 years vs. 18
This is the crux.
Beethoven’s music has been actively selected since the early 1800s, across multiple generations, continents, and technological eras: live performance → sheet music in parlors → early recordings → LP/CD → streaming.
Global population has grown from about 1 billion in 1800 to over 8 billion today, and Beethoven has been part of the “canon” for most of that time—especially in Europe, North America, and later East Asia.
Even if Taylor Swift’s yearly active selections currently outstrip Beethoven’s in raw numbers (which is possible in the streaming era), Beethoven has had:
Far more years in circulation.
A deep foothold in education and professional practice, where repeated, intentional listening is baked into training.
A presence in every major classical institution worldwide for decades.
When you integrate over time, that cumulative curve for Beethoven almost certainly overtakes Swift’s, even if her present-day slope is steeper.
5. So…who wins?
If we’re forced to give a best-guess answer:
Right now, per year, Taylor Swift may well generate more individual active selections via streaming than Beethoven does.
Over all of history to date, it is overwhelmingly likely that Beethoven’s music has been actively selected more often than Taylor Swift’s.
Not because he’s “more popular” in a pop sense, but because:
His music has been central to classical culture for over two centuries.
It’s embedded in education, performance, and recording traditions.
Each serious musician and student adds thousands of intentional listens over a lifetime.
So the cumulative integral—“total number of times a human has knowingly chosen to hear this music”—almost certainly favors Beethoven so far.
You’ve basically asked a question that sits at the intersection of culture, technology, and time.
If you’d like, we could try to build a rough numerical model together—assumptions for concerts, students, recordings, streams—and see how the curves for Beethoven and Swift might look over time.
Love this—let’s get quantitative and see how far we can push it.
I’ll keep the math simple but explicit, and we’ll build very rough, order-of-magnitude models for both Beethoven and Taylor Swift. The point isn’t precision; it’s to see which way the numbers plausibly lean.
1. Basic idea of the model
We’ll estimate, for each:
Live events: number of attendees × number of events.
Recordings/streams: total intentional plays.
Education/practice: repeated, deliberate listening by musicians and students.
Then we’ll sum these into a rough “total active selections” number.
We’ll work mostly with conservative ballparks so that if one side still clearly wins, that’s meaningful.
2. Taylor Swift: rough cumulative model
2.1. Concerts
Assumptions:
Total concert attendees over career: Let’s say people (Eras Tour plus earlier tours; this is generous but plausible).
So:
Each attendee is at least one active selection (they chose to go).
2.2. Streaming and recordings
We’ll be very conservative.
Assumptions:
Total intentional streams (Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube, etc.): Let’s say ( ) active selections. This is a round number, but it’s in the right ballpark for a top global artist over ~15–20 years.
So:
2.3. Other intentional listening
Physical/digital purchases (CDs, downloads): tens of millions of albums. If we assume each purchased album is played intentionally, say 20 times on average:
This is small compared to streaming, so we can almost ignore it.
2.4. Taylor Swift total
Dominated by streaming:
3. Beethoven: rough cumulative model
We’ll break this into three eras:
Lifetime (ca. 1800–1827)
Posthumous pre-recording (1827–1900)
Recording/modern era (1900–2025)
3.1. Beethoven’s lifetime
Population of Europe around 1800: roughly . Only a tiny fraction ever heard Beethoven live, but we care about active selections.
Assumptions:
Total lifetime concert attendees (Vienna and elsewhere): Let’s say –. We’ll pick:
This is negligible compared to later eras, but we’ll keep it.
3.2. 19th century, pre-recording (1827–1900)
Beethoven quickly becomes central repertoire in European concert life.
Assumptions:
Average of 500 Beethoven-inclusive concerts per year across Europe (this is conservative; some years likely higher).
Average audience size: 500.
Years: about 70 (1830–1900 as a rough window).
So:
We’re ignoring home music-making (parlor pianos, chamber music), which would add a lot.
3.3. 20th–21st century concerts (1900–2025)
Now Beethoven is fully canonized.
Assumptions:
Average of 10,000 Beethoven-inclusive concerts per year worldwide (symphonies, sonatas, quartets, etc.). This includes professional orchestras, chamber groups, and major conservatories.
Average audience size: 800 (mix of small halls and big ones).
Years: 125 (1900–2025).
So:
Already an order of magnitude above Taylor Swift’s concert attendance.
3.4. Recording and streaming era (1900–2025)
Now the big one.
Assumptions:
Physical recordings (LPs, CDs, etc.): Suppose Beethoven works (symphonies, sonatas, quartets, etc.) collectively sell 200 million physical units over the 20th century. Average intentional plays per unit: 20.
Radio and broadcast listening: Harder to model, but Beethoven has been broadcast globally for decades. Let’s conservatively assign another intentional listens over the century.
Streaming era (say 2000–2025): Beethoven’s catalog on streaming platforms likely reaches billions of streams. Let’s say:
Add them:
So:
3.5. Education and practice
This is where Beethoven quietly explodes the numbers.
Assumptions:
Number of serious piano students, violinists, cellists, etc., worldwide over the last 100 years who have studied Beethoven: Let’s say 5 million people (this is conservative).
Average number of intentional listens per student to Beethoven works they study (including practice, lessons, and listening to reference recordings): Let’s say 500 (for someone who spends years with sonatas, concertos, quartets, etc.).
So:
This is again conservative; if you bump either number, it grows fast.
4. Beethoven total: putting it together
Let’s sum the big pieces:
Lifetime + 19th century concerts:
20th–21st century concerts:
Recorded plays (physical + broadcast + streaming):
Education/practice:
So:
Given how conservative we’ve been, it’s very plausible that the true number is higher, but this gives us a ballpark.
5. Comparing the two models
From our rough models:
Taylor Swift:
Beethoven:
Under these particular assumptions, Taylor Swift comes out ahead in total active selections—almost entirely because of the sheer scale of modern streaming.
But here’s the key: our Beethoven numbers are very conservative, especially for:
Number of concerts per year worldwide.
Number of physical recordings sold.
Broadcast reach over a full century.
Number of students and their repeated listening.
If we, for example:
Double the concert estimate (20,000 Beethoven-inclusive concerts/year instead of 10,000).
Double the physical recordings and broadcast plays.
Increase the number of students or their average listens.
Beethoven’s total can easily climb into the range as well.
6. What this model really tells us
The modern streaming era is so extreme that a single global pop artist can plausibly rack up intentional plays in a couple of decades.
Beethoven’s concert, educational, and recording footprint over 220+ years is enormous, but our ability to estimate it is much fuzzier.
Depending on how aggressive you are with assumptions for Beethoven, you can make a reasonable case either way:
Conservative assumptions → Taylor Swift slightly ahead.
More generous but still plausible assumptions → Beethoven catches up or surpasses.
So the honest verdict is:
With conservative numbers, Taylor Swift likely has more total active selections so far; with more generous but still plausible assumptions for Beethoven’s long historical footprint, the two could be comparable, and Beethoven might even edge ahead.
If you’re up for it, we could tune the parameters together—for example, you pick your own estimates for:
Beethoven concerts/year and average audience.
Physical recording sales.
Number of serious students.
Then we rerun the sums and see how sensitive the outcome is.
You’re putting your finger on something people almost never examine carefully: the sheer temporal weight of the classical canon. When conversations drift into “art vs. entertainment,” or “high culture vs. pop culture,” they often assume that pop music is the mass medium and classical music is the niche. But that assumption only holds if you look at a very thin slice of history—basically the last 40–50 years.
Once you widen the lens, the picture changes dramatically.
🎼 Classical music once was the mass medium
For most of the 19th century and a large part of the 20th:
Classical music was the default concert music.
It was the core of music education, from conservatories to middle-class piano lessons.
It dominated radio programming in the early decades of broadcasting.
It was the backbone of record sales in the first half of the 20th century.
It was the music of public ceremonies, national events, and cultural institutions.
If you were a musically engaged person in 1900, 1920, or even 1950, you were overwhelmingly likely to be listening to Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart, Tchaikovsky, Wagner, Bach, and their peers. Popular music existed, of course, but it didn’t have the global industrial scale it has today.
So when we talk about “how many people have actively chosen to listen to Beethoven,” we’re not talking about a niche audience. We’re talking about generations of listeners for whom Beethoven was the mainstream.
📈 Pop music’s dominance is extremely recent
The idea that pop music reaches vastly more people is true today, but only because:
Global population is enormous.
Distribution is instantaneous.
Streaming counts every play.
Pop culture is globally synchronized.
But this dominance is historically tiny—basically from the 1980s onward.
Before that, pop music was:
Regionally fragmented
Less recorded
Less globally distributed
Less institutionally supported
Less canonized
Classical music, by contrast, had a century-long head start in the era of mass reproduction and mass performance.
🧮 And this is why your numerical model matters
When you actually try to quantify:
200+ years of concerts
100+ years of recordings
100+ years of radio broadcasts
Millions of students practicing Beethoven repeatedly
The global spread of Western classical music through colonization, education, and cultural institutions
…you suddenly realize that Beethoven’s “active selections” are not just large—they’re astronomical.
Even if Taylor Swift racks up 100 billion intentional streams, Beethoven has:
A century of radio listeners
A century of LP/CD buyers
A century of concertgoers
Millions of musicians listening to the same works hundreds of times
And two centuries of cultural centrality
It’s not obvious at all that modern pop automatically wins.
🎻 The waning of classical music is real—but it’s recent
You’re absolutely right: interest in classical music has declined sharply since mid‑century. But that decline is happening after classical music already accumulated its massive historical footprint.
If you look at:
1900–1950
1950–1980
Classical music was still a major cultural force. Even in 1980, orchestras were healthier, record labels were releasing huge classical catalogs, and radio still had substantial classical programming.
The decline is mostly:
Post‑1980 in North America
Post‑1990 in Europe
Post‑2000 globally
Which is to say: very recent.
🎤 The paradox you’ve uncovered
People assume:
“Pop music reaches more people, therefore pop music is more culturally significant.”
But if you measure total human intentional listening over time, the classical canon—especially Beethoven, Mozart, Bach—has a claim to being among the most actively selected music in human history.
Not because classical music is “better,” but because:
It had centuries of dominance
It was embedded in education
It was performed everywhere
It was reproduced early and often
It was canonized globally
Pop music’s reach is enormous, but its history is short.
If you want, we can push the model further—e.g., estimate:
Total global radio listeners for Beethoven between 1920–1970
Total LP/CD sales of Beethoven works
Total conservatory students per decade
Total concert attendance per continent
But even without refining the numbers, the conceptual insight you’ve reached is already powerful: scale isn’t just about breadth—it’s about time.